Callicles presents a problem for Socrates by refusing to concede like Polus did that: …..He has his own moral theory about who is strong, and good, etc. and who should rule and have a greater share. socrates responds to these ___ claims by disputing them in typical socrates fashion. He tries to have callicles admit his own flaws through questioning and finding holes in his argument. Socrates begins the argument with callicles in a dialectical fashion, which he used when refuting gorgias and polus, but then he gives longer speeches at the end.
Callicles is not pleased with the Polus and Gorgias’ concession to Socrates. After conversing with Socrates, Polus comes to the conclusion that “doing what’s unjust is more shameful than suffering it” (482d). Callicles doesn’t believe this to be true and believes that Socrates forces his interlocutors to contradict themselves because they are “too ashamed” to speak their minds. (482d) For instance, Callicles asserts that Socrates messed Polus up because he tricked him: “if a person makes a statement in terms of law, you slyly question him in terms of nature; if he makes it in terms of nature you question him in terms of law” (483a). Callicles is upset by Socrates and the way he obtains a certain answer for his own agenda. Callicles believes that for this central question about whether one should commit the unjust act versus suffer it, Polus “meant that doing it is more shameful by law, you pursued the argument as though he meant by nature. For by nature all that is more evil is also more shameful, like suffering what’s unjust whereas by law doing it is more shameful” (483b). Callicles feels that Polus should not have conceded and would have rather have him push back against these assumptions made by Socrates. These pent up feelings about nature versus law and his frustration regarding the submission of Gorgias and Polus incites Callicles to take over the verbal sparring with Socrates.
Callicles’ moral theory separates groups of people into the stronger and the inferior and he thus believes that “the superior should take by force what belongs to the inferior, that the better should rule the worse and the more worthy have a greater share than the less worthy” (488b). ***** He believes “that the people who institute our laws are the weak and the many. They do this and they assign praise and blame themselves and their own advantage in mind” (483 b). The weaker ones, Callicles claims, don’t want anyone to have a greater share; they know that the powerful, strong men “are capable of having a greater share” (483b-c). In order to stop this shift of power, “the weak and the many” assert that the acquisition of a greater share is “shameful and unjust” (483b-c). Callicles believes this organization of power and thinking is false and goes against nature: “If we followed the laws of nature instead of institutional ones, then the superior people would get the greater share they deserve” (483 e). The stronger people, are “better,” “braver,” “intelligent,” “worthier,” and “superior,” so according to Callicles, society should accept that there are stronger and weaker people, and award the stronger with a greater share because they have the knowledge and should rule the cities. Callicles implies these men rule over others, but they don’t need to rule over themselves through self-control, because if one is subjected to rule, he is unhappy. Nature
In accordance with Callicles’ moral theory, in order for a superior person to live out his life the way that he should, he “shouldn’t restrain his appetites but let them become as large as possible and then should procure their fulfillment from one source or other and that this is excellence” (492d). ***** A man who FINISH TALKING ABOUT UNRESTRAINT
Socrates takes issue with Callicles’ moral theory and begins to take apart his argument in order to show him that he is wrong. Socrates trips him up by acknowledging that the words he used to define the “superior” people could not be used as synonyms, and through this Socrates is able to show Callicles that his original argument has a false line of reasoning. Callicles has used words like “better,” “superior,” and “stronger,” to describe the specific group of people who should be in charge. Callicles claims that all of these words are synonymous. Socrates notes, however, that “the many” are “superior by nature to the one” because they “impose the laws upon the one” (488d). Therefore, “the rules of the many are the rules of the superior” (488d) and the “rules of the better” (488e) because with Callicles definition, superior and better are the same. This would mean that the rules that the many put in place, for example, that “it’s just to have an equal share and that doing what’s unjust is more shameful than suffering it” (489b) are good rules, so this proves that Callicles’ first statement about the contradiction of nature and law is false, at least because of the terms he originally uses. Callicles attempts to gain back some ground by asserting that he actually meant “the better” is equal to “the worthier” (489d).
Socrates also combats Callicles’ assertion that the “better” should EXPLAIN THE UNRESTRAINT/HOW PLEASURE DOES NOT = GOOD, AND EVERYONE FEELS SAME AMOUNT OF PLEASURE,ETC
ALSO ORATORY IS BAD, PANDERING, BEST PEOPLE SHOULD BE ORDERED/RESTRAINED
“Then whoever feels joy is good and whoever feels pain is bad?
CALLICLES: Certainly.”
“Then the bad man is as good and as bad as the good, or perhaps rather better.”()
PROOF. Socrates is also successful in showing Callicles how his original argument, pursued after Polus conceded, that ****** was not true because. Socrates also
Socrates combats Callicles and his theory by having him define the words he’s been using, finding holes in his argument, and then having him come to the understanding that his line of reasoning is incorrect.
Callicles equates pleasure to good, but by doing so, Socrates is able to yet again show the flaws of his assertion. When the body is thirsty, it is in pain. Drinking to ease that pain is “pleasant,” so therefore pain and pleasure is present at the same time. Something that is good cannot also be painful and bad, so Socrates concludes that pleasure is not synonymous with “good.” Callicles continues to claim that those that are good are good because of the goodness found in them …
After coming to the conclusion that the good and the pleasant are not the same, and allowing Callicles’ ____ that there